Communicating Science– A Conversation with Karen DeBaker

Communicating Science– A Conversation with Karen DeBaker


Jerry: Iím Jerry McMahon and Iím the project
chief of a U.S. Geological Survey, NAWQA, National Water-Quality Assessment Program
Study of the effects of urban development on stream ecosystems. And why weíre here
today having the conversation is that we are at the tail end of the project and weíve
produced a lot of scientific journal articles, USGS reports, pretty much exclusively aimed
at a scientific audience. And one of the things that we want to do as we wrap up the project
is figure out how we can communicate, package some of this good science information in a
format that would be of interest to a non-science audience. So the dilemma that weíre facing is that
itís not something that we as USGS scientists do often and that we know how to do very well,
that is– take this great science information and translate it into a format that not only
people can trust as being believable and credible from a science standpoint, but that they can
actually make use of it, understand it and even make a connection between this information
and their interest, sort of what they wake up and worry about or are interested in each
day. So again, what Iím hoping we can do is have
a conversation to talk a little bit from your perspective about how can we do this stuff,
what sort of things should we keep in mind. Can you tell me, Karen, can you tell me a
little bit about what you do here in Hillsboro, Oregon? Karen: Well, my title officially, Iím Karen
Debaker and my title officially is communication supervisor. And I work for Clean Water Services,
which is a water resources agency that serves the west metro region of Portland, Oregon.
About 527,000 folks. We provide wastewater and storm water services, river flow management,
flood protection, fish habitat protection and such. So our goal is basically to promote a healthy
watershed lifestyle. And my job is mainly concerned with communicating that to the public
and making sure that what weíre saying fits into their daily lives, just like you were
talking about. We need to let them know why itís important and how they can be ambassadors
of the clean water message. Jerry: Well, can you tell me a little bit
about sort of how the process plays out? At some point obviously thereís scientific or
engineering information about the watershed or about the services you all are providing.
Can you step me through the process of how you start with the science and end up with
some information that people care about and are willing to use to put into practice in
terms of how they lead their lives every day? Karen: Sure. The biggest thing that I think
if you stepped back and start to think about first of all who you are. I mean you are a
public official, youíre working for a public agency and you have a responsibility to be
open and honest with folks. That being said, you also are working with the negative connotation
that government or a public agency has. Government is sometimes viewed as being misleading; using
lots of jargon, being covert, spending money unwisely, when we know personally that thatís
not true. However, those are the misconceptions that are out there. So while youíre working to be open and honest
you have to remember that this is what folks are really thinking and so you have to strive
to be as open and honest as possible. We like to basically say ñ we follow basically the
mantra of ìwhatís in it for me.î WIFM we call it. And that basically youíre putting
yourself in the position of a resident, for example, Mary who lives down the street. Why
should she care about clean water? Why should she really care about what youíre talking
about? You need to put yourself in her shoes and think about how your message and your
teachings and your scientific data can fit and help her in her daily life. Another thing you need to do, like I said,
is know your audience. You have to, again, put yourself in their shoes. Youíre going
to use different language whether youíre speaking to peers, whether youíre speaking
to public officials, or whether youíre speaking to the public, Mary who lives down the street.
So there are different languages and different levels of information that youíre going to
use based on their backgrounds. Try to know the values of your audience. Now
I know you might say, you know, I canít go and visit with each one individually. Jerry: Right. Karen: But you do have the opportunity, I
mean there are surveys that are out there that test what people believe and their values
and whatnot. You just have to be able to figure out where theyíre coming from so you can
relate. A lot of our public education and outreach programs deal with changing behavior.
Youíre asking people to change their way of life, to be more supportive of watershed
health. So thatís where values come into play. The other thing is you need to know their
motivations. Why do they do what they do? Whatís going to be an incentive that you
can provide to help them do, you know, what you want them to do? Do you need to give them
coupons to buy the native plant? Do you need to give them coupons to buy the organic fertilizer?
You also need to figure out what the barriers are to get them to change. So we talked about purchasing fertilizer.
If a barrier is cost I canít ask them to drive 30 miles away to the organic nursery
to buy this really expensive fertilizer. I have to work within their values, their beliefs,
their motivations and their daily life, you know. You have to know their background and
know what those barriers are to help them make that behavior change. So thatís real
important. Jerry: It sounds intimidating and impossible
from the perspective of a scientist. And I understand what youíre saying, makes a lot
of sense to me as a ñ I mean Iím a citizen as well and sometimes I know that people are
trying to get me to do things that are good for something. But Iím sitting in my office
or working out in the field developing scientifically sound information that can be published and
presented to a group of my peers and that involves a particular set of skills. None
of those skills overlap with what youíre talking about in terms of getting information
about these people and their interests and what they care about. So am I supposed to do that? Are there ñ
I mean how do you guys work it in terms of you have a group of scientists and engineers
who are developing sound information, some of whom work for you and maybe you hire others
as consultants, but how do you ñ who does that translation and who collects that information
about what people care about so you can address the so what, who cares question? Karen: We take ñ we put a lot of value into
our community interactions. When we go to public meetings or we go to the Childrenís
Clean Water Festival we putÖ Jerry: When you say we, so this isnít necessarily
the scientists, this is your office or you perhaps. Karen: Right. But however, it can be. We actually,
and this is a good way to think about it as well, not everyone in your organization is
comfortable speaking with the public and I think thatís what you were eluding to a little
bit. We understand that. And working for Clean Water Services we try to find those people
who like ñ find those people who are ambassadors, so to speak, who can spread our message. For example, we have a lot of school programs
and I would love it if every one of our waste-water treatment plant operators would go and speak
to classrooms because theyíre the folks that are doing it, theyíre the scientists. But
a lot of them are uncomfortable speaking in front of the public. So we try to find that
one person maybe who is a little league coach, maybe who is very interested in speaking with
the public who works well with kids. We talk about knowing your audience, but at the same
time you have to know your employees and find those people who arenít the public affairs
folks, who are the natural communicators who can spread that, like I said, that clean water
message. Itís great if they can go out there in their
uniform as well. I mean that, the science, the lab coat, all of that. And weíve been
very successful doing that, but thatís because weíve done our research with our employees
and weíve trained them. I mean one of the things that we say is prepare and practice.
I mean that goes for public affairs folks, but, you know, the same goes for anyone else.
Is there someone at home that, do you have a spouse, do you have a 17-year old son that
you can kind of talk with and make sure that they understand where youíre coming from?
If you can do that and if that other person who might be a family member can understand
what youíre saying then youíre ready to speak to the public. So itís important to know your employees
and find those people who are comfortable. Donít shove someone out there in the world
who isnít comfortable even though thatís the smartest person in your organization. Jerry: So can you say a little bit about how
you train these scientists or engineers to get into this role that may not be within
their comfort zone right away. Karen: The biggest thing that we do is that
we give them the tools and tips that we live by. And we talked before about knowing your
audience, we tell them you need to choose your words carefully. So we give them these
tips. One of them is to try not to use words that are more than three syllables. Try not
to use sentences that are more than ten words long. Stay away from jargon, stay away from
acronyms, use conversation style. Itís okay to be funny, itís okay to have an active
voice. Donít use the passive voice. Try to be more on level with the public that youíre
speaking with. The biggest thing, and this will relate to
a lot of the stuff that USGS is doing as well as in our clean water services, is we deal
in a lot of numbers. Hundredth decimal point is very important. If something is 98.34 percent
donít tell someone that. Say itís more than 95 percent or itís almost 100 percent. Try
to put everything in simple terms. Keeping it simple is very important, trying to relate
to the public is very important. So I think itís mainly calming the fears
of folks saying, you know, we know youíre not a public speaker but knowing ahead of
time what they want to talk about and then working with them to put it in simple terms
is a great way to do it. Because I think you feel you need to talk at a higher level and
you donít, but in the same token Iíll say donít assume people donít want to know more,
donít assume theyíre not as smart as you. So speak in those smaller sentences and the
shorter words, put all that more scientific information out there though so they can get
to it if they want to. Save that for your website, save that for your white paper that
you can hand out later. Jerry: One of the challenges I think for scientists
is that thereís a feeling that in order to be accurate and to represent this information
that youíve worked so hard to develop and through analysis to draw some interesting
conclusions is that to be accurate means that you do have to talk about the thousandth decimal
place. And it almost seems like thereís a different mindset that you need to adopt in
talking to the public where you are being accurate, itís okay, youíre kind of checking
off the responsibility box of being scientifically accurate, but maybe expressing it in terms
that would be less precise than you would use to speak to your science colleagues. And
thatís a challenge. Karen: It is. And thatís why we were saying
you need to plan and prepare. You know, we always say, too, if a media call comes in
and they happen to call you instead of somebody in your public affairs or communications office
we try to train our folks to say, you know what, when do you need this information, can
I call you back in five minutes. We encourage them then to call someone in public affairs
and we say okay letís plan out what youíre going to say, you know. Is there a way that
you can give that information in a shorter version and then lead them to somewhere else
where they can get more information? Itís just a matter of being confident in
what youíre saying, but at the same time you have to remember who youíre speaking
to. I mean itís not ñ youíre not speaking to your colleagues most of the time youíre
speaking to that 17-year old or youíre speaking to Mary who lives down the street. Or youíre
passing by and usually what we say, too, is practice your elevator speech. The elevatorís
ready to take off, what can you say in five seconds that will get your information across?
So you have to keep that in mind and just be confident. Jerry: Well, it seems like it takes training.
Itís not something that necessarily anyone, whether theyíre a scientist or anyone else,
that they can do automatically, sort of communicate a chunk of maybe complex information in five
or ten seconds before the elevator door closes and the elevator starts going up. Do you all
do training with people as a matter of course with scientists who might be in this position,
I mean in contact with the public? Karen: We do. We try to do some media training
and thatís something where weíll work with other organizations kind of to save on cost
and bring a media trainer in. And so they can practice being on camera and whatnot.
But, you know, times are tough and we want to save money as much as possible, try to
get the most bang for our buck, so to speak, so just a one on one conversation like Iím
having with you where we give them these tips, you know. We say keep it simple, know your
audience, be open and honest. And if you keep those skills or those tips in mind thatíll
help calm your fears. And we always tell folks, too, you know, like
I said, practice in the mirror. Itís not as much practice as you would think. I think
basically itís mainly trying to how do you build your credibility at the same point of
relaying really important information? And you just have to build that confidence in
folks. And I think itís kind of the role of public affairs folks, theyíre natural
communicators, to build those scientists up. Because we like to say weíre not the smart
ones, you are. And folks would rather hear from you than from me. So being confident
in what youíre saying is very important. So thereís a lot of mental confidence that
goes on with all of that, too, rather than just trying to relay the scientific information. But one of the things I was going to say,
too, is that we ñ you want to relate to your audience as much as possible and if you feel
like you fit in that will help you provide ñ that will help you give the appropriate
clean water instruction that you want to give. For example, if you are asked to go to a meeting
to speak, for example, we donít want you to show up in your science coat or your three
piece suit at seven p.m. when thereís a neighborhood meeting at the local church. No, you need
to fit in because you want to build credibility and you want to be seen as one of the guys
or one of the women, you know, who are there so you can be ñ fit in and basically speak
appropriately. So basically, the important thing we always
like to say is we are in the business of protecting public health and we try to ñ we show folks
that we are there for you. And by protecting our water resources we are giving you a livable
community, we are protecting your familyís interests. Jerry: It strikes me that weíre in a period
where thereís almost a sense of urgency about communicating science information to people,
at least from the perspective of scientists. Thereíre things going on that, at least in
the long term, could affect my interests and my kidís interests and my grandchildrenís
interests potentially and yet we also see by just sort of the political environment
that we live in and the skepticism about expert knowledge that itís become a lot harder to
have people connect with science information that an agency like USGS could provide and
value that as something useful for them. And I donít know that the traditional forms
of communication that we use in USGS, particularly journal, scientific journal articles, for
instance, are really the way to go to make that connection with people. So how ñ what
should we be thinking about in this time where there is an urgent need for the information
thatís complicated by the fact that a lot of times people have no idea about why they
should care about the information? Karen: Well, itís important to know that
ñ I wouldnít give up on those journals. There are folks who do like those white papers,
as we call them. However, you know, people are getting their information from a minimum
of seven different news sources a day so you need to be efficient, you just need to be
more efficient, you need to package it a little bit more succinctly. For example, unfortunately
we are now ñ Twitter has taken over the world. I mean we are in an industry where, I should
say an age where it is a 140 characters or less. And working with the minimum of seven news
agencies or news resources you have to be quick with that information. But at the same
time make sure you are able to get all that information across in a short manner. I mean
we talked about the shorter words and the shorter sentences. However, at the same point,
not everything is a Twitter feed. I wouldnít base all of my communication resources on
using Twitter. I would use a variety just because there are a variety of audiences out
there. For example, the journals are still just as
important as a Twitter feed. Your website is just as important as using Facebook. Keep
a variety in there. Twitter and Facebook, as far as social media goes, does relate more
to the younger audience and this is where, especially at Clean Water Services and the
Water Environment Federation, we are trying to bring in those younger scientists. So you
need to be able to speak to their interests. I mean we want to make water interesting,
we want to make water resources fun and our industry knowledge is going out the door with
our retirees. So in trying to relate and trying to get those younger audiences in you need
to be able to use the resources that they use to get that information across. Jerry: So with the younger folks do you guys
use Twitter and Facebook? Karen: Yes, we do. We use TwitterÖ Jerry: And youíre packaging the fruits of
the science and the engineering knowledge in a way that ñ so how do you fine tune that
140 word message or the Facebook posting that kind of takes the ñ letís say youíve done
monitoring and youíve developed a scientific story out of the monitoring data, how do you
package that in 140 words or in a Facebook posting in a way that my son, whoís a college
student, is really going to care about? And maybe point, you know, share that with a friend
of hers or his? Karen: We use humor. For example, we have
a ìtree for allî program where try to plant so many trees in so many years in order to
protect watershed health and the title of our 140 characters or our little news story
will be Get Dirty for a Good Cause. So we try to be funny with it. So youíre trying
ñ you are trying to create that angle and grasp their attention. Then we provide a link.
If they want to learn more information thereís always a link. You canít, for more information,
you canít just say something without giving them the option to learn more. So thatís
very important. And itís kind of what I talked about earlier
as far as kind of giving the synopsis and then making more of the in depth information
available somewhere else. You donít have to say everything all right there, but you
do have to think about- how are you going to grasp their attention? Itís okay to use
humor. I mean people ñ people know scientists are smart, youíve built that credibility,
itís okay to be fun, too. Jerry: Yeah, a colleague that weíve been
talking with about this issue; generally scientists communicating with the public, actually has
written a book called Donít Be Such a Scientist. And thatís really ñ thatís a challenge
for many of us I think that are scientists is not to fall back into our comfort zone,
which is talking about the particulars, the nitty-gritty stuff, all the details, all of
which we need ñ we feel like we need to make this message credible to our peers, which
we do, but the credibility standards for our science peers maybe are not the same as with
the public. But Iím wondering if you can talk about the
part of the demographic that isnít ñ Iím not on Twitter, I donít use Facebook particularly.
I really like hard-copy written things. Thatís still where my brain is wired from, you know,
how old I am, how I was educated. How do you guys reach people like me who may not be scientists,
who might be concerned about their environment but they donít want to read a scientific
document? Karen: The biggest thing that we try to do
is in those written documents try to use lots of white space, photos, graphs, different
way to relay that information that isnít only the written word. Things have to be appealing.
And, you know, before I talked about a minimum of seven news sources a day, things have to
be quick and they have to be able to be looked at, you know, in a short timely manner. So
by using pictures to tell stories youíre livening up, you know, that information a
little bit so. Jerry: So is the idea kind of a National Geographic
type format with really striking photos that are related to the scientific finding accompanied
by a nice catchy caption. Is that what youíre talking about? Karen: Mm-hmm. Exactly. And video. I mean
weíre talking about video. I mean weíre here now making a video instead of producing
a white paper. You know, I think folks like you, you know, you would like video, too.
I mean itís a different way of presenting things. I, and like I said before, I wouldnít
completely get away from doing the long laborious white paper because some folks might want
that. And, you know, people view scientists as credible. They do want that information. There are folks that might, like I said, might
even be smarter than you that want all of those numbers and stuff like that. But you
just have to realize that you have a larger communication platform which youíre working
with right now and there are a lot more communication resources out there and you have to curtail
your messages accordingly to each one. Itís a lot more work and itís unfortunate we live
in a really busy society so that is why scientists like you need to work even more closely with
those communicators and try to combine those messages. But again, people would rather hear
from you than from a public affairs person. Jerry: Well, itís interesting, part of what
Iím gathering from what youíre saying is that we as scientists at USGS potentially
have a number of audiences, many of which weíve never really spent that much time thinking
about. And we know through peer review, journal articles and USGS scientific publications
that we can reach an audience of our peers, people who are going to give us good feedback
and challenge us to do better science through the scientific process and thatís an arena
where weíre comfortable. But in the time where scientific information
actually is important in terms of policy decisions related to clean energy or climate change
or natural hazards, land use planning related to natural hazards, or watershed planning,
there are a lot of other people out there who are potential consumers of scientific
information from the U.S. Geological Survey who may not be able to access that information
because of the way that we typically communicate. So the challenge is to think about who this
other audience is, what are they looking for in terms of both their own information needs,
but also what makes information ñ and actually this is a question for you, what makes information
believable and credible, scientific information? I mean is all science created equal in the
eyes of the public from your standpoint? Or what makes scientific information maybe stand
out as being particularly credible to the public? Karen: You have to build the credulity as
an agency as a public official yourself. I mean theyíre looking at you, you know. Theyíre
looking at USGS. Is that credible? Okay, itís a government agency so they might be lying
to us. They get paid a lot of money. I mean you have to realize that you do have credibility
to a point just from your title and what youíre trying to do again is youíre trying to be
as open and honest as possible. So I know a lot of scientists, I donít want to say
hide behind all of the numbers, but at the same time you have a right and you have a
responsibility to give all of those numbers, whether theyíre good or bad. I mean surveys have told us people want the
truth no matter if itís good or bad. So itís okay to give that information. Itís just
important that you make sure you know your audience and youíre speaking to them in the
manner that they understand. Thatís more important. The numbers follow. I mean you
have that credibility. Youíre USGS, you are the scientist. People do trust that, but they
just want to make sure that, you know, they can receive that information very clearly.
They donít want you to use a lot of jargon, they donít want you to speak too much about
them. So if they feel that theyíre your friend and they can understand you that helps build
your credibility as well. Jerry: I have another question and I think
it gets to this credibility thing and that is that we can construct a great model that
predicts an outcome that might be of interest to people, you know, water quality is going
to be good, water quality is going to be bad in terms of some legal standard, or itís
going to be somewhere in between. So there are three different possible outcomes. Now
I get a sense sometimes that decision makers might want us to just predict one of those
outcomes and that thatís going to be the outcome. But in reality, thereís probably
a chance of any three of those things happening. One might be more likely than another. And so the challenge is, I think, for scientists
in part to communicate ñ in communicating with decision makers, for instance, a county
commissioner, to explain the uncertainty associated with or the different likelihood associated
with these three different outcomes. How ñ what should we be thinking about when we think
about that issue that the reality is is that there is probably a likelihood of any one
of these three outcomes? This one might be a little bit more likely or less likely than
another one. How do you communicate uncertainty to decision makers? Karen: Well, to decision makers, and thatís
kind of what I was talking about before about knowing your audience. You know, youíre going
to use a different level of conversation depending on your audience, whether itís peers or decision
makers, public ñ or the public themselves. And I do think knowing what the decision makers
are looking for. You still donít want to hide anything. Try to always make things sound
positive even though itís bad. Meaning that if youíve got information that, you know,
water quality is declining you need to also say, but hereís what we are doing to make
it better. Always try to look ahead, you know. I mean
you want to give the facts and you want to provide all of the data and stuff like that,
but I think decision makers just want all of the information. You know, like I said,
because those decision makers then are going on and relaying that information to the public
and to their peers. So theyíre also interacting with the same people that youíll eventually
interact with as well. And itís that whole idea of being open and honest. I donít think
you have to put a spin on anything. However, if you have a decision maker that
has a specific reason or is looking for a specific answer you do need to speak to that
interest. But is there a way that you can then put that full information somewhere else?
Because like I said, those decision makers are speaking for the public as well and theyíre
serving the public as well. Itís your responsibility to provide all of that information so. And I always like to say, too, you know, you
donít have to lie, but at the same time you need to be positive with what youíre saying,
you know. We spent our industries scolding people for what not to do, donít do this,
donít put, you know, oil down the drain, wash where, be careful where you wash your
car so the soap doesnít go down the drain. However, at the same point, you need to be
able to say okay hereís what you can do instead, you know, so- And another big thing is even choosing your
words carefully as far as saying water quality, you know, we say clean water. Water quality?
What does that mean? We say clean water. So itís important that you, even though youíre
speaking to decision makers and youíre choosing your words appropriately, you just have to
realize that there are other audiences out there that are listening. Jerry: Well, I mean itís interesting and
this gets into the jargon difficulties, that weíre so used to speaking with our peers
that we use jargon as sort of a shorthand and we all understand what it means, but you
canít necessarily count on an entirely different audience which has a different frame of reference,
different experiences, to even understand what a word like water quality might mean.
Yeah, thatís a good point. Itís an interesting point. Karen: And thatís why I say practice and
prepare. Speak to someone whoís not within the industry, your spouse or your 17-year
old son. Thatís very important. Jerry: Well, thanks very much. End of Audio Duration: 30 minutes 1
Karen Debaker.mp4 Jerry McMahon and Karen DeBaker
Communicating Science- A Conversation with Karen DeBaker 1
Filename Speakersí Names _____________________________________________________________________________________ www.gmrtranscription.com

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