Roots of the Christchurch Tragedy (w/ Wajahat Ali)

Roots of the Christchurch Tragedy (w/ Wajahat Ali)

On the line with us is a writer for the
New York Times – Wajahat Ali , if i’m pronouncing that right sir?
[ALI] That was very impressive, you deserve a KitKat.
[THOM] And the website is @WajahatAli excuse me that’s the at
the Twitter handle. And of course the you can read his article
which is just absolutely brilliant. It’s titled “The roots of the Christchurch
Massacre”, all over at the the New York Times. it was published last Friday I believe,
Wajahat welcome first of all welcome for to the program thank you for
joining us today. I caught a little bit of you on TV this morning, thought this
is this guy really has clarified in his mind and through his work and
research exactly what’s going on here. From Christchurch New
Zealand to the United States. Can you give us a summary of your understanding
of what’s actually going on? [ALI] Thanks for having me on your show.
It’s a globalized ideology of hate which anchors these disparate white power and
white nationalist movements. The ideology is white supremacy the ideology states
that white people or white civilization whatever that means is inherently
superior to all other inferior civilizations and individuals and have
to remain on top one of their main fears tom is something called the great
replacement theory and if you’re paying attention that was the name of the
manifesto written by the man who killed 50 people in New Zealand invested
terrorists they called it the great replacement another word for the great
replacement is white genocide what this says is that there’s a global conspiracy
headed by cohn quote the Jews who are the head and brains of the Cabal and
what they’re trying to do is use their wealth and money to bring in foreigners
invaders immigrants black people Muslims to overtake and weaken the white man so
that the white man will be subordinated now if you’re paying attention and read
the manifesto of the domestic terrorists in
New Zealand he said he wanted to punish the invaders he used the word several
times and take revenge against who the Muslims if that is familiar to you it’s
because October Robert Bowers walked into a synagogue in Pittsburgh Tree of
Life and Shawn killed 11 people he said that he wanted to punish the invaders
those individuals helping bring in refugees and he was going to get them
before they got us specifically on a right wing social media site gab he
retweeted a post that said we had to punish the evil filthy Jews for bringing
in the evil filthy Muslims the house Trump connected chump might not be a
white supremacist um but he has no problem promoting white supremacist
conspiracy theories just like the one I mentioned in October midterm elections
you can’t guys Gaslight us it just happened he tripled down on one talking
point and one talking point only what was that I don’t recall that Caravan oh
yeah that Caravan this was when he was sitting on top of a pretty robust
economy there was job growth but him and Fox News went all in and that there is
an invasion he used the word multiple times a caravan of rapists and criminals
and middle-eastern suspects and Mexicans they’re invading America what he also
tweeted out was the George Soros conspiracy theory George Soros is a
Jewish Hungarian American billionaire that was allegedly funding the caravan
that was promoted by Republican leadership that is a conspiracy theory
that is part and parcel of the great replacement that is he emerged directly
from white supremacist infrastructure and used in Europe and if you look at
the terrorists manifesto he refers down from what does he say Trump is a renewed
symbol of white pride and he shares in common purpose why would a domestic
terrorist who walks into a mosque and kills 50 people share a common purpose
what’s Donald Trump and there’s way more examples but that just a taste yeah so
Wow meanwhile we’ve got you know Andrew Breitbart saying that his big awakening
his conversion was when he discovered cultural Marxism which has now become a
thing on the right and apparently tracks back to a small group of Jewish
people who emigrated here from from Nazi Germany in the late 1930s and and or at
least that you know is from what I’ve been able to determine and and then
you’ve got the guys in in Charlottesville chanting you know and
you will not replace us Jews will not replace us that’s exactly the Jews will
not replace us there you go it’s not as white supremacist cake in the vault
right who took their tiki torches to show its will and that’s what they were
chanting now if you were paying attention does that sound familiar yeah
what’s the New Zealand shooter was saying and these synagogues well and
when you go back to Anders Breivik the the mass murderer in Norway who killed
70 plus people children in fact of children of liberals because it was a it
was a liberal organization that sponsored the summer camp is
specifically because he was I believe correct me if I’m wrong because he was
he said that the Liberals in Norway were in favor of bringing refugees into the
country yeah and the shooter in New Zealand it was inspired in part by
Anders Breivik who in 2011 left behind a 15 hundred page manifesto explaining in
detail why he shot and killed 69 mostly teenagers and left aside a bomb in a
federal building killing 77 people he said that he wanted to punish Europe for
being pro-immigrant for being pro diversity and for being Pro Muslim and
he wanted to warn Europe on his brother calls and I haven’t been able to share
this on media channels in the last few days but hopefully I can give me 20
seconds sure honor is Brevik left behind a 50 hundred page manifesto he cites
Thomas in that in that inner page manifesto at the writings of American
Islamophobes in fact Marc Sageman a terrorism expert said that those
American Islamophobes who I’ll name in a second can’t be blamed for his actions
but Brevik and them emerge from the same ideological infrastructure I wrote about
all this in 2011 in an investigative report I did called fear incorporated
the roots of the Islamic Obion Network in America trying to understand where
these conspiracy theories like Sharia is a threat to America that should sound
familiar for anyone who’s been paying attention to what’s happening the judge
Bureau where did this come from right hmm and what what we traced was it went
from the SWA and the right wing to the mainstream
discourse specifically through elected officials think tanks some funders
grassroot groups and mainstream media personalities so something that was
fringe ten years ago was literally uttered by judge Peru last week on her
show on Fox News the same Ilhan Omer as being a potential fifth
column you know an on if you will loyal American based on the fact that
she’s Muslim and wears hijab and Brevik inspired this New Zealand shooter Brevik
also inspired this coast guard who just a couple weeks ago Christopher hasn’t we
forgot about it because it’s you know it’s trumped so like there’s a new chaos
every day but there was a domestic terrorist who was caught with
stockpiling weapons inspired by Brevik we wanted to kill as
many Muslims and people as possible and he said he wanted to establish a white
state the question we have is why is Donald Trump so impotent and pathetic in
confronting white supremacist but if there’s a Muslim suspect you know he
tweet stuff yeah and that’s a question I need any be and he’d be you know going
nuts on this stuff the question for me was II Holly yeah okay wash the question
for me is what do we do about this I mean you know we’ve got we’ve got this
the simple reality of the Browning of America and frankly Europe and the rest
of the world the and you’ve got some white people who are you know paranoid
about that you’ve got others I would say the majority who are using that as a as
you know to exploit yeah other white people you know to crank up fear you
know basically a racialized fear this is not anything new I mean you know Richard
Nixon’s war on drugs was meted to this it was about black people you know the
the reefer madness of the 1920s was meta to this about Hispanics you know we’ve
seen this over and over and over you know the the the you know the
Republicans for years use this you know black people want to take your jobs etc
how do we speak to these frightened white people who think that somehow
their being a smaller percentage of the population of the United States
represents a personal threat to them that’s a very good question I wrote
about this in the summer it’s called how to dear attic lies white people for the
New York Review of Books and you set it up really well is that there’s this
perceived racial anxiety that was the main not the only but the main motivator
for Trump voters according to every single study that’s been done in the
past three years there’s not economic anxiety its racial in fact it’s
politicians like you said who play upon these cultural Wars and racial anxieties
to pit the white people the mainstream against everyone else invasion or
Mexicans are rapists and criminals Muslim back I mean look it’s right in
front of us Trump’s been doing it the dog whistles or blow horns right the
last three years and so what we’re witnessing around the world is what I
call the death rattle of white supremacy which has transformed into a death march
I did not say white people I said white supremacy it’s an ideology and a
structural superiority that has been put in place in Europe in America since its
foundation and because there are more people of color and also one other
aspect that people never mentioned and they should women misogyny is critical
in the white supremacist movement they are deeply deeply threatened by
empowered women this is highly highly hierarchical and patriarchal highly and
so the alt-right for example the way they recruited alright guys are discrete
white guys and they say that the Jews are promoting narratives in Hollywood
that are empowering women and these women are emasculating you and so what
we’re witnessing is this feeling of emasculation and weakness a feeling
where they’re losing validation and power which is why the white supremacy
narrative it’s so powerful just like the ISIS nerd it goes to angry dislocated
men and women who feel unmoored and they find a community a sense of belonging of
validation in this in this community which they find usually online and it
gives them a sense of purpose and what I always like to remind people is they
think they’re the heroes top that’s a key thing they think that the
protagonist of a global narrative no but we’re still diagnosing the problem I
mean how do how do we speak to them so how we speak to them is the following
you need a top-down approach first and foremost you know the president states
America actually confront it has a prom and call it what it is domestic
terrorism it’s the number one the domestic terror threat in America
corner the FBI attack it the way he attacks John McCain in the press I mean
that sincerely so a top-down leadership you have to
call for where it is domestic terrorism be we have laws on the book that can be
enforced to go after them with teeth some people say we need more laws for
example those laws that really attack terrorism or only for those entities are
our foreign such as Isis and al-qaeda so give law enforcement the teeth to
prosecute it number three top-down/bottom-up
education what’s their ideology how do they operate how do they mobilize
education top down to really identify the markers and build this into our
schools yeah exactly I mean because you know I want to talk to experts who are
helping indeed radicalization they said a lot of these young men people missed
the signs people miss it do you know how long though we have been fighting this I
mean when when my wife and I were kids and I mean literally when we were when
we were in high school this was in the 1960s and and I was in Lansing she was
in East Lansing Michigan in my schools we did not have any kind of education
about people of color there was no there was nothing in her school in East
Lansing its college town they they had two years of black studies and she had
to read all these you know all this stuff and that that you know I grew up
being largely ignorant of and and those programs that started in the 60s I mean
they were coming out of some of the turmoil of the 60s although frankly this
was this would this would have been in the mid this would be like 63 to 66 that
those are all gone to a large extent as far as I can tell and that was just a
very modest effort to acquaint you know middle class white people with with the
struggles of people of color in the United States you know both the slavery
and the Native American genocide exactly and you you kind of mentioned your last
time and I was listening to write these these propaganda is that we have this
meritocracy that if you just pull yourself up in the bootstrap in America
like this equal country we’re like you know anyone can make it what kind of
being invisible to the hidden hand the power structures the privileges the luck
right when you see President Obama be the
president now you see people say well let’s just you know wash our hands of it
we live in a post-racial Society racism that’s in the past
move on and then the rest of us like oh wait a second nope
if anything it revealed the fissures because eight groups in America that
exploded according to Southern Poverty Law Center are the past ten years post
election of Barack Hussein Obama and you have to think about it based on what I
was talking on the last segment what could be more terrifying that a black
man son of a Kenyan Muslim ascending to the highest office in the land what be
more triggering tom to people who feel cone called racial anxiety and so this
type of education has to go both ways in empowering education about all the
narratives of Americans who got left out that’s us people of color including some
of the signs about these men who are being radicalized online and finally
there are no to last things online social media has a duty responsibility
because this ideological infrastructure thrives online they recruit online it
radicalized they do propaganda and they do targeting and Isis and white power
movements are always two steps ahead yes they’re minor in number but they’re
highly organized and passion and so social media now has to find the needle
in the haystack and shrink the haystack we have 2d platform people I’ll give you
one quick example or D platforming actually works guys I just read a tweet
right before I got onto this phone that Milo you novelists who was given a
mainstream social media platform remember him two years ago
yeah is now desperately willing to go have a lunch or dinner with anyone if
you pay him because he’s two million dollars in debt both him and Alex Jones
have been deep platform the social media has a role in this to play and we in a
Donald Trump took away funding that’s the final thing uptick funding from
counter from white supremacist group former white supremacist or D radicalize
and wash a hot we have we’re gonna have about three minutes here until until we
have too much no no no it’s great until we hit this hard break at the bottom of
the hour we’ve been talking about how you know how from top down the president
should be condemning this we need to educate people going back to like the
you know the the the diversity studies that we had back in the 60s frankly
things and and deep platforming these people it
got comprehensive thing but back to my original question if what’s really going
on here at some level and I have seen this you know throughout my life right
if what’s going on is that white men are feeling like they’re privileged that
they grew up assuming would always be there without even thinking of it in
those terms right but if they’re if the white men are saying wait a minute our
privilege is being taken away from us and I saw this in the 1970s with the
women’s movement I remember the universe the University of Michigan just down the
street from us there was this big you know lawsuit about reverse
discrimination that just inflamed to the right Pat Buchanan was out you know in
Michigan stomping all over Michigan screaming about this there you know
women are taking in the positions of white men now black people are taking
the positions of white men you know at cetera that as long as white people are
actually seeing their privilege be diminished how do we speak to them about
that in a way that doesn’t make them crazy how do you say yes your white
privilege may be being diminished because we’re bringing everybody else up
to your level and you know that’s going to mean that you know some white people
are not going to have quite as much privilege as they used to have but it’s
the right thing I mean you know that doesn’t seem like that’s gonna work with
the proud boys it’s gonna be do you got one minute you’re not gonna win them all
there’s any some people who will be radicalized they’ll never evolve and
change just like those people who never evolved when schools were desegregated
but we need enough let me just be tongue-in-cheek with moderate White’s to
step up and get their people and educate them and inform them and say exactly
what you said that this is better for all of our kids it’ll create a just
equal society because in the absence of this there will be nothing but warfare
and division and that’s by the way exactly what ISIS and white supremacists

24 thoughts on “Roots of the Christchurch Tragedy (w/ Wajahat Ali)

  1. The roots of intolerance are rooted in conservatism. Conservative values and behavior is not bad in and do themselves and usually present one with a safe and time test path. Where it goes wrong is when fear or anger replace reason and the individual or group refuses to adapt to the new situation and violence (or threat of it) ensues. All groups have committed atrocities through our history, but in today’s world the focus has been on Islamic terror. However there has been a sharp increase in white nationalist terror recently as well targeting culturally or ethnically different people and minority groups. These are often poor immigrants. In some cases there is an undercurrent from the populace about stereo typical feelings on them. In others it’s a politician or community leader telling entire groups that other people are the cause of their problems which usually are attributed to money, culture and religion. It’s the conservatives that tend to overreact. These days information and misinformation reaches people at prodigious rates. It’s hard to know what is a trustworthy source. And many simply don’t question their sources too often. The more they see the more it’s reinforced. Liberals can be guilty of the same as well, but they’re not attacking minorities. And those that point out that they attack white conservative protestors, let’s be clear – they are white supremacists, they show up armed, and their very message and presence is hostile or malicious. Playing the victim is easy when Antifa shows up. It is the white nationalists that provoke people to react to the message of intolerance and hate.

  2. your discussion missed one important source of racism in the US – the prisons. The prisons system actually divides the prisoners by race and pits the races against each other because the divided prison populations are easier to control.

  3. Yeah, I don't even think people like Trump, most GOP politicians, Netanyahu, etc., are actual fascists. They just need votes, and they have no problem courting people with segregationist ideologies. There's bound to be a faction within that group that will use violence to achieve their goals. They knew, they just don't care. Bottom line is, where does this lead? We see what happened when we let Al Qaeda/ISIS grow, in Syria. Alt-Qaeda will be no different, other than maybe the reach they have and the amount of countries they take over.

  4. Very informative..but for 20% of the population any reform of their thinking on race is never going to happen. Never. Those delusional people are so steeped in conspiracy and racism and paranoia that they may as well be a different branch of humanity.

  5. I'm glad he brought up misogyny. The level of misogyny among these angry, white men under 40 is getting worse & is making the internet so hostile & unpleasant to good people who aren't harming them at all as they spread like a cancer through Twitter & YT especially. I see it online in the reaction to Brie Larson & Captain Marvel & to Anita Sarkeesian & Gamergate.

  6. White nationalists just want to not be replaced in their own nations. It has nothing to do with superiority. Wajahat is a liar.

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